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1. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Emma Hardy

   Drought Conditions: England

   I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and it is frankly astonishing when we are seeing the impact of climate change with our own eyes. It is there in front of us. We have had the driest summer in over a century, yet still some people think that climate change is not real. We are going into an El Niño year where there is a higher risk of flooding. We have already talked about the whiplash weather we are experiencing, and I find it unbelievable that people do not think that climate change is a real thing, or that we should be taking action on it. We absolutely need to because it is impacting every one of our constituents in every part of their daily lives. It would frankly be a dereliction of duty if we did not take it seriously, and I am pleased that—thank goodness!—we have a Government who are not a Government of climate deniers, unlike many of the Opposition parties.

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2. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Drought Conditions: England

   Bottled water businesses are worth billions of pounds, yet when I was a child nobody drank bottled water and I have often wondered why that is. Does the Minister agree that whatever the drought situation, tap water for drinking must remain the very highest priority?

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3. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   This has been a very interesting debate, which has been very long. Perhaps like many other hon. Members, I am beginning to feel the need for a beer. First of all, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this very interesting debate. Members may notice that he is wearing a tie that is the same as mine—it is the tie for the APPG on beer. I would like to recommend that all Members present consider membership of the APPG, as I can see it is something in which we all have an interest. The APPG holds a marvellous dinner in the ballroom of the Institute of Civil Engineers once a year, which I have now been to twice. I should like to recommend it to all Members.

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4. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   I will come to that in a moment. I certainly do have a favourite beer. [Interruption.] If you’ll allow me one moment—

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5. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   I have something written on my phone, which has been sent to me, that I would like to read.

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6. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   It is absolutely on the topic.

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7. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   I am grateful for that question; I shall answer it. In April 1911, The Bury and Norwich Post listed 79 hostelries in Bury. By 2019, there were only 21. Here is a little ditty about them: “The ‘Three Kings’ joined in the sport and chased him round a ‘Wheatsheaf’ to the ‘Suffolk Hunt’ onto ‘Cupola House’ where the ‘Red Lion’ stopped their sport. Looking for more fun a ‘Swan’ was seen near the ‘Elephant and Castle’ looking for the ‘Market Tavern’ when the ‘Old Angel’ came along and led it astray to the ‘Rutland Arms’ and sent for the ‘Shepherd and Dog’ to convey it to the ‘Railway Tavern’ to be packed up with the ‘Saracen’s Head’ and sent as a present to the ‘Cricketers’ (who were having dinner at the ‘Dog and Partridge’). On their way, the ‘Ram’ saw the ‘Half Moon’ in the ‘Nutshell’ and did a ‘Star’ performance amongst the old curiosities, knocking down ‘Three Horse Shoes’, exploding an old ‘Cannon’ and blowing off the ‘Kings Arms’ which were sent to the ‘Joiners Arms’ to be repaired; after which he went to the ‘New Inn’ for refreshments which made him a bit lively and getting all the ‘Taps’ to join him they went to the ‘Suffolk Shades’ to empty the ‘Gallon Can’ which they did to their sorrow for the police had to send them to ‘Ipswich (Arms)’ to get sober. They were last seen near the ‘Tollgate’ singing, we are all ‘Jolly Good Fellows’ and that’s that!” I apologise for reading that out.

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8. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   My hon. Friend must have a moment more patience, for I am coming to that. Pubs have been at the heart of life in Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket for centuries. They are part of our history, our local economy and our communities, and my constituency has no shortage of remarkable stories to tell. Greene King has brewed in Bury St Edmunds since 1799. Its Level Head beer has made it into the Strangers Bar. I feel that the Chancellor should be offered a pint before the Budget, for if ever there was a speech that required a level head, that is surely it. But Greene King is not living on its history. Last year, I joined the company as work began on its new £40 million brewery at the Suffolk business park, which will be completed next spring. It will keep brewing in Bury St Edmunds, sustain local employment and make production more sustainable. Now, that is heritage and growth working together. At the all-party parliamentary beer group dinner to which I referred, Mr Nick Mackenzie, the chief executive of Greene King, was sitting at my table and was given the Community Hero award for the actions that Greene King has taken in the community in Bury St Edmunds. It is a fantastic local business. I mentioned that to our former Prime Minister, who said that he would be content to come and open the brewery when it opens next spring. I said to him, “All we need to do now is organise a parliamentary piss-up in a brewery,” and he said, “What could possibly go wrong?”

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9. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

   Heritage Public Houses Bill

   I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is well known that Charles Dickens stayed at the Angel hotel in 1835, and it later featured in “The Pickwick Papers”. He returned regularly to give readings next door. Two centuries on, guests can still stay in the very same room associated with his visits. Of course, most hoteliers would simply settle for a good online review. The Masons Arms occupies a building dating back to the early 16th century. In Stowmarket, the Royal William, a traditional backstreet pub that was granted its licence only in the 1960s, serves real ale by gravity. There are plenty of things I would like to see modernised, but certainly not that. I come to my favourite pub, the Nutshell. [Hon. Members: “Aha!”] It is listed in the “Guinness Book of Records” as the smallest pub in the country, at just 15 feet long by 7 feet wide, complete with a mummified cat. In 1984, an extraordinary 102 people and a dog called Blob reportedly squeezed inside. Any of us who struggle to find a seat at Prime Minister’s questions should count their blessings. Stowmarket once had a pub called the Hop Pole Tavern, which had a railway siding running all the way through it. I support travelling to the pub by train, but that was taking integrated transport rather too literally. I have already read out one of the ditties about Bury St Edmunds’ pubs, so I shall not tell the House another one, although there are several.

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10. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I will come to that—[Laughter.] But I want to make a more serious point. As we know, sadly, many pubs have disappeared. I understand that we lost something like 7,000 pubs during the 14 years of Conservative rule, and we continue to lose them. Anyone who walks around our towns or drives through the country can see closed-down pubs, but habits have changed and laws have changed. Some of these laws are exceptionally good ideas. For instance, the law about drink-driving is an excellent idea and has saved thousands of lives. I recall my father, who was a physician, telling me years ago that if people were caught drink-driving following an accident when he was young, the fact that they were drunk was regarded as an excuse. Times have moved on considerably.

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11. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I would say that it is probably a poor idea to fill oneself up with alcohol and then go on the dodgems. I think it would exacerbate the vestibular upset.

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12. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Lager, in my time, was regarded as a sort of new-fangled drink that was drunk in other countries. In Yorkshire in those days very few people drank lager. I also want to talk about the smoking ban—I did say I was going to have a serious section in my speech. One of the reasons why people have stopped going to pubs is because there is no smoking allowed in pubs. Stopping smoking is one of the best things we have done. The Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026, which sets out that people will have to be older and older in order to buy cigarettes is, in my opinion, the single best thing that we have done. That single measure will save more lives than anything else we are likely to do in this Parliament. I applaud that, but I recognise that it has had consequences for pubs, where people would gather to drink beer, smoke and have good cheer.

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13. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I simply think that the smoking ban is an utterly brilliant thing to do. I cannot predict what will happen to pubs as a result of it, but it has not been good for country pubs. Before I conclude, I want to make one remark about the issue of supermarkets and the cost of beer in convenience stores. In the convenience store at the bottom of my street, it is less expensive to buy a slab of lager than to buy a slab of Coca-Cola. Something has gone seriously wrong with the pricing arrangements for beer. I see that Greene King has now discontinued its off-licence production and will now only sell beer in pubs. I would like very much to see something done within our tax system to make it much less attractive to buy alcohol in convenience stores and supermarkets.

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14. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dr Peter Prinsley

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I would very much like to speak to the Chancellor over a pint of beer about quite a number of things; perhaps that is something that I could request. I simply cannot go on with this speech forever, but let me say that I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Its ambition to identify and protect heritage pubs is welcome, but a simple register will not pay the electricity bill. Protection must go hand in hand with helping pubs to adapt, remain accessible and, crucially, stay commercially viable. I want the next generation to know our pubs not only from old photographs, but from Sunday lunches, quiz nights and conversations with neighbours. They must not be left as empty buildings. We must keep them alive. Let us protect their history and give all our locals a future worth drinking to.

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15. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    My hon. Friend rightly highlights that pubs are a venue for historic music. Does he not think that this Bill is rather limited in describing heritage as being simply about the building, when sometimes the events in the building are also deserving of heritage status? I think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he has any more to say about the history of the particular venue he highlighted.

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16. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Not heritage.

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17. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    On the connection between beer and churches—and some religious orders—Hackney Church Brewery runs a bar as part of its mission in the wider community, underlining how historic institutions can come together as part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry.

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18. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Once again, my hon. Friend highlights that it is not just about the building, but about the events that take place and the conversations that happen, as he refers to obliquely. Major historic moments have happened in public houses—some of them were, of course, coffee shops at the time—so does he have any examples of such historic moments that he might like to expand on?

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19. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) not only for bringing forward what is a complex, multi-clause Bill—it is quite brave of him as usually only the short ones are successful—but for the passion with which he spoke about the outrageous demolition of the Crooked House pub. I do not know his constituency, but I vividly remember the outrage that I and many people I met in the constituency felt about that being allowed to happen—that people could be that brazen and get rid of a major cultural asset. The hon. Gentleman also highlighted pubs and planning in his speech. I will touch on that in a moment, but it is worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications. Sometimes it is quite odd to walk down a major road in the City of London and see a little gap where there is a pub surrounded by high-rise glass-fronted office blocks. Sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning applications? I will touch on that in more detail later. In simple terms, this is quite a long Bill for what it seeks to achieve. I want to cover three areas. What is the Bill adding to the existing landscape to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? Although there is a definition outlined in the Bill, I think it is a bit unambitious, if I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, because, as I have already highlighted a couple of times, heritage is wider than just the physical building. There are new buildings—new entrants to the market, as it were, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) eloquently put it—and heritage can mean different things, depending on where we are in the age range. Some of us will remember things because we have been around a long while, but for some people, because of the zeitgeist, the pub of the moment is what will become the heritage venue of the future. I also want to touch on assets of community value, which plays into my first point—why this Bill, when we already have a mechanism? We already have many mechanisms in the planning system to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. To start with, proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application, and pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various Governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this Government have been a champion of making it easier to develop, while also trying to maintain protections. That is the challenge, and we have a Prime Minister who rightly wants to see more devolution. When I started as a baby councillor, quite a long time ago—over 30 years ago—I inherited a seat on Islington council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place. Under her leadership of the council, there was an excellent councillor called Maurice Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services—services delivered within pram-pushing distance. Now our Prime Minister talks about things in every postcode, and with the internet we have moved on from pram-pushing distance, but local devolution to the most appropriate level is right, and it is still a challenge. We want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning is not held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, we have permitted development rights, and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that.

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20. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Absolutely. I am tempted to get into the second part of my speech, but I will touch on this because our railway arches in Hackney South and Shoreditch are becoming a real hub of diverse businesses. A lot of the breweries in my constituency are based there—I will not go through them all now—brewing on site and providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they would not count as heritage pubs under the Bill because they have not been around as a pub for 150 years.

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21. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I make a heartfelt commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his Bill progresses today, I will certainly work with him on that. Let us wait and see what happens in that respect. The challenge of a Bill of this length is that is quite complex to amend, because there are a lot of moving parts that already cut across, as I have touched on briefly. I will go into a bit more detail on that, but I will come back to the point about the vibrancy of modern pubs and breweries as they are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country. In planning terms, we had arches that were, unfortunately, sold off under the previous Government. When Network Rail was classified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. To fill that gap, the Government of the day sold off the family silver, selling the railway arches that Network Rail owned—in my area, we also have ones owned by Transport for London—including a large percentage of them in my part of London and in parts of south London, including maybe in the Minister’s constituency. The Arch Company has a job as a landlord, and it inherited some very interesting businesses, which I will touch on in a moment.

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22. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to get too much into every clause of the Bill, because this is a debate about its principles, but the important principle my hon. Friend highlights is that we can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the definition. To be clear to the House, the definition the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly highlighted is that a pub must be “at least 150 years old and…used as a public house in the past ten years”. There is still a debate there about something that maybe was a pub 11 years ago, so I think there is also a gap there. It also states: “has been most recently used as a public house and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance meriting consideration in planning decisions”. That is a debatable point, when a tram shed may have gone through further changes—different eras of planning may change things. I remember that there was one warehouse in the heart of Shoreditch that, very unusually, had not been basemented in the Victorian era and had been in sole ownership for many, many years. As a result, when development occurred on that site, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum, brought in its archaeology department—as it is in London for every planning development—which discovered that there was land there where Shakespeare himself had performed one of his first plays. When the building was developed, the very ground where Shakespeare—the bard himself—trod, was preserved under glass. That shows that buildings move and change. So, without swaying too much into the detail, the definition is really important. It may be that the tramshed in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) would qualify, but if some of the old tramshed trappings have been removed, with the change of use, it may not, so there is an interesting point there. I will turn back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures, which is why I think this Bill may be over-layering that unnecessarily. Local planning authorities do, of course, have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control, with the maximum penalty being an unlimited fine. The Crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine did not resolve the problem, so there is a gap in current planning law. I am sure we all have examples in our constituencies of mysterious fires or things happening, whether in our time or in a predecessor’s time, because the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets, who can simply pay that penalty and then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. With the Crooked House, there were clearly people who had no regard for the punishment that might fall on them.

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23. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Indeed. I have seen that, too. There is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt, and is now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute of Blind People. Looking at it, one can see the shape of the old building, but sadly it does not have all the character. There is nothing that quite protects a building. Is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such important heritage? Perhaps the Minister could respond to that. Even if the Bill does not pass today, perhaps there is scope for the Government to consider some of the thrust of the proposals and desires of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, over which there is clearly some agreement across the House, in a future planning Bill. If the Bill were not to go through today, I would certainly be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on such issues. I suspect there may be wider support for that. The other area around planning is about listed buildings. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. Of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. Again, I ask the Minister whether the sanctions are enough where there is wilful action to interfere with buildings—the Crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen here—whether listed, as I have highlighted, or not. I think we need to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to future planning law. As I hinted at in my interventions on my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, I want to move on to cover what we consider heritage to be. As the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire rightly points out, he has tried to provide a definition in this Bill, and I am not knocking his attempt to do so. However, if we are talking about pubs, heritage is more than just the building, because pubs are not just a building. I think about the pubs that are emerging in my constituency; they are our modern heritage. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I have in my constituency—I would be very happy to arrange a visit to some of them. We are the crucible of craft brewery. At one point, there were five craft breweries in one ward in Hackney Central, although the famous Five Points brewery—named after the five-point roundabout in Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based—has now moved to another part of Hackney. It is now based in Victoria ward, I think, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site. It was originally set up by Ed Mason. These modern spaces are not just about the space and what they are brewing. In many cases, they are working hard to bring in heritage hops, and some of my microbreweries have relationships with Kent farms. They are trying to create British beers with British hops. They are really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but also looking backward historically. I think that that heritage is important, too. There could be challenges that mean that those pubs, bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, from business rates to energy prices—things that are putting hospitality businesses under great pressure. I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Co., which is also under an arch, in Hackney central, near to the church itself— Proceedings interrupted (Standing Order No. 11(4)).

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24. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I was talking about Hackney Church Brew Co., and many of the other independent breweries underneath the arches.

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25. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Everybody is always welcome to Hackney South and Shoreditch—it is the centre of the universe, although others may disagree with me. It is only half an hour by bike or public transport from this place, so I highly recommend it—a good night out will be had by all! The new breweries and pubs are bucking the trend in hospitality, and the archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses. High streets can be challenging, but in Hackney our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because although Hackney is often described as being very hip, cool and expensive—and that is true—it is still achingly poor. One in two children live in poverty, although thanks to the Government’s changes on child poverty hopefully that will reduce, and nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many in overcrowded conditions. The arches are part of what might be called “new Hackney”, but they build on the old traditions. Saint Monday is an innovative brewery that combines brewing with heavy metal, so any heavy metal fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal in the same place. Great Beyond taproom and brewery, another archway-based business, was set up by Ollie, Nick and John, three beer-loving friends. They do some amazing work and people can buy great Shoreditch and Hackney-made beer there. I forget which bar serves which beer—perhaps we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton and Shoreditch? That alone would keep us busy. The Howling Hops brewery brews on site as well, and I really like the 40ft Brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and again. The name 40ft refers to that fact that it is based in two 20-foot shipping containers, so not arches this time. That would not reach the heritage standards set out by the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, but there is interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries. Many breweries offer tours, including Signature Brew and Five Points, so if people are thinking about gifts as we approach the festive season, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. This shows the modern culture that is coming through. Some of the breweries are in heritage buildings, and the arches have their own heritage, but the challenge would be whether they qualify under the provisions set out in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill. I want to talk a little about assets of community value. When I read the Bill for the first time, I was trying to find what was specifically different about the provisions relating to assets of community value. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire outlined some of that in his speech, so I am now a little wiser to his thinking. Assets of community value were introduced in the Localism Act 2011. It provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, that they feel “furthers the social wellbeing or social interests of the local community”. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that those schemes are run in accordance with the legislation, as set out in part 5, chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value (England) Regulations 2012. That includes making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act. Although I have no scepticism about the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire’s intent, which a lot of us share, I remain sceptical about the Bill. The Government are already strengthening the assets of community value scheme, which I am sure the Minister will go into in her remarks, through provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. That will introduce a new community right to buy that covers some of the provisions in the Bill, including, from memory, clause 9 about how people can put in a bid to own a property. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it is put up for sale by its owner. They will have 12 months to raise funding and there will be an independent valuation process to ensure a fair price, so that negotiation is successful. That is close to a lot of the provisions in today’s Bill, so he is welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks his Bill is different.

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26. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. We have already talked with some passion today about the pubs, heritage buildings and heritage in our constituencies that we value, so that means that we need to push for them to become assets of community value. I will give an example from my constituency: the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney’s first ever asset of community value. That pub is 162 years old; it closed in 2012, and the owner at the time just assumed that it would be possible to turn it into flats. It is on a residential street—it is a traditional east London pub in a terrace. It is not very big; it is just a little neighbourhood pub, and when it closed there was an assumption that it would be easy for it to be redeveloped, but the council stepped in. At the time, the council was under Labour control—we also have an elected mayor in Hackney, although of course planning matters are not matters for the elected mayor—and it defended the Chesham Arms from redevelopment. It reopened in 2015; it is a real success story. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire is right, though, because the challenge was that that pub closed and then became an asset of community value. Learning from that example and from the comments that the hon. Gentleman has made, we all need to be ahead of the curve on this. Whether it is a tramshed that is a heritage building and has become a pub, a pub that has been there for a very long time or a coffee house that has become a pub—whatever the cultural issues are—we can push for those buildings to be assets of community value in a wider way than the hon. Gentleman’s Bill allows for. I suggest to the Minister and all colleagues that we take today as a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, without having to go through a quite complicated process that I think narrows the scope too much. There is an opportunity for us to broaden our understanding of what a culturally rich heritage site is, and push for assets of community value to be more widespread ahead of a threat arising, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says. I am not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency—we would be here for a very long time, and I am aware that other people want to speak. Needless to say, I would be very happy to arrange a tour at any point, and I am sure that the various bodies I have worked with over the years on beer and breweries would be keen to help enable that. In fact, when the current Chancellor was working in the Treasury, he was instrumental in changing the taxation of small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist—breweries that create many jobs in brewing and, of course, hospitality. They still struggle at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of our other assets, so as Members, we need to be more ambitious. We do not necessarily need to legislate for everything; the legislation is already in place, and I think we are very capable of using the legislation we have to protect the assets that hon. Members have spoken eloquently about and defended. I am happy to continue to work with the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on the intent of his Bill, but I do not feel that this is the Bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing the Bill today.

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27. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Dame Meg Hillier

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    My hon. Friend is making a really important point. Newer venues are often based in community spaces and deliver the services that the clientele want. There is nothing wrong with preserving buildings, but sometimes older pubs cannot always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons —development around the area or changing demographics, for instance. This is an invidious question to ask an MP, but does my hon. Friend want to name her favourite modern pub that she thinks should be an asset of community value in her constituency?

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28. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just churches that can turn into pubs? I am reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency. It has previously been a centre for local government and a prison, and it is now a pub. Does he agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison may be a good idea for the future?

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29. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    It is a pleasure to take part in this debate; I have had a very enjoyable tour of the historic pubs of England this afternoon. I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for introducing the Bill. It is an important moment that has given us all an opportunity to pay tribute to the outstanding contribution that heritage pubs make not just to just the communities we represent, but to the fabric of our national identity in the UK. We have heard contributions from across the House and the country about the amazing pubs that we have. The hon. Member said that the case of the Crooked House was the genesis of the Bill. Although I never got the opportunity to visit that pub, the case was an outrage. I vividly remember the coverage and understand completely the argument that something so appalling should never have been allowed to happen. Heritage pubs are crucial. There are so many in my constituency, and I do my best to support them as the local Member of Parliament by visiting them all assiduously.

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30. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I do not know if that is possible, but I assure my hon. Friend that I am putting my shoulder to the wheel and doing my best. While I support pubs as a patron, I am afraid I cannot claim to have supported them behind the bar. As a young man, I got a job in a pub and managed to last one day before being sacked because I was completely incompetent. Pubs in Scotland and the rest of the UK face pressures, but issues like upkeep costs, building maintenance and the higher bills associated with an historic site can result in extra pressures for heritage pubs. Although the Bill applies only in England and Wales, let me be the voice of heritage pubs in Scotland in this debate, because I think the perspective from Scotland will be instructive for Members in understanding the shared challenges our pubs face on both sides of the border. As a passionate believer in the United Kingdom, I passionately believe that while we have different ecosystems and face different challenges, what unites us is far stronger than what divides us. We can learn so much from and support each other. The pubs in Edinburgh East and Musselburgh tell the story of the challenges that historic pubs face. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp), who is no longer in his place, suggested that by mentioning a pub, an MP is hoping to get a free pint when they visit—he underestimates what it takes to get a free pint out of an Edinburgh publican! I think the Sheep Heid Inn in Duddingston in my constituency, which opened in 1360, is the oldest pub in Scotland and potentially the oldest pub referenced in the Chamber today. It lies between Edinburgh castle, in one part of my constituency, and Craigmillar castle, in the other, and was famously a stopping point for King James VI as he travelled between them. There is no better way to spend a day in Edinburgh than climbing Arthur’s Seat and then descending to the Sheep Heid for a pint. I have already told Members about the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile, which was used as a council chamber, a prison and later a pub.

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31. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I would very much enjoy visiting that pub with my hon. Friend, but only on condition that she comes with me to another pub in my constituency connected with the criminal justice system: the White Hart inn on the Grassmarket, where I spent Saturday night. That pub was founded in 1510, although the current building dates from early Georgian times, when there was no better day out in Edinburgh than to go and watch a public execution on the Grassmarket, followed by a drink in the White Hart inn. We do not do that any more, although during the Edinburgh festival it is fun to go and see some comedians get murdered, then go to the White Hart for a pint afterwards! In these historic pubs, one feels a connection not just with the whole community, but with the history of the place. I think of the Ensign Ewart, just outside the gates of Edinburgh castle, which is named after a hero of Waterloo and still contains memorabilia from that battle. In Edinburgh, these pubs in the Old Town have made an outstanding contribution to world history. The Scottish enlightenment took place in the Old Town of Edinburgh. Everybody lived in that crowded area, in flats—piled up on top of each other. At the top were the aristocrats, in the middle were the merchants and in the lower flats were the working classes and the urban poor. Because they were all living side by side, cheek by jowl, they would congregate in the pubs of Edinburgh, and people would talk not to those from their own social class, but to those from other social classes; they would talk about the ideas of politics, reform, religion and philosophy that were going around the continent. It is because everybody in Edinburgh had to get together in the pubs like that that they were able to exchange ideas and the enlightenment took hold in our city. We underestimate the power of pubs at our peril. Although many hon. Members have extolled the virtues of the pubs in their constituencies, I think I have one-upped everyone by claiming that western civilisation actually developed in mine. It is not just in the medieval Old Town of Edinburgh where we can find the value of historic pubs. The Espy in Portobello is a seafront staple. Owner Amanda Caygill, who has been a long-serving part of the Portobello scene, has recently left after 19 years serving the community. I am looking forward to seeing what happens and who takes over. In Musselburgh, we have the Volunteer Arms, known to locals as Staggs. It is one of CAMRA’s real ale pubs of the year and has a beautiful Victorian interior. It recently featured in “Dept. Q” on Netflix. The owners, Katie McKenzie, Nigel Finlay and Hayley Finlay make a massive contribution to Musselburgh life. I am particularly indebted to them because when I was last there I left my keys on the bench, and they kindly put them in a taxi and sent them across Edinburgh for me.

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32. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Bannerman’s is a fantastic Edinburgh pub. I support the principles of protecting historic pubs, and in my remarks I am underlining my support for historic pubs in my constituency. We have pubs like Bennets in Tollcross, which is a beautiful pub with dark wood and brass taps, right beside the newly reopened King’s Theatre—the Old Lady of Leven Street. The Ormelie tavern in Joppa has a historic tenement lounge. It is one of those great tenement pubs that we get in Edinburgh. I really recommend it after a day campaigning in the cold winds of Edinburgh and Portobello. Another of my favourites is the Regent in Abbeyhill. The Regent would not qualify for the 150-year rule set out in the Bill, because it is a gay bar, and 150 years ago homosexuality was criminalised. The Regent opened in 2003—which, shockingly, was only 22 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Scotland. That underlines the point that pubs are not just bricks and mortar, places we go or local phenomena. Look at gay bars: they are places for a community who come from far and wide, seeking people like them. The Regent is in central Edinburgh, and I last visited after the Holyrood garden party. I walked from Holyrood palace, having seen the King and Queen, up to the Regent, where I saw some of my other fellow queens. That is the role that gay pubs can play: they bring communities together, allowing people a safe space where they do not fear attack. They are also places to which we can bring along friends from the straight community so that they can see, understand and acclimatise to our culture. We have been talking about the closure of pubs in this country, which is a problem that we have to face, but gay pubs and LGBT venues have been closing disproportionately faster than ordinary pubs. A study by University College London found that between 2006 and 2017, 25% of all pubs had closed, but 58% of LGBT venues had closed. Pubs are not just about bricks and mortar or a geographic community but about identity, and community is not always geographic; it can go further. The Minister is the Member of Parliament for Vauxhall, so I am sure she understands well the role of LGBT venues in protecting our pubs, but I would be happy to take her to the Royal Vauxhall Tavern or the Cock Tavern in her constituency should she need any further convincing. While my constituency is home to amazing pubs, sadly in Scotland we are governed by a Scottish National party Government. As a result of their policies, we are seeing pubs closing fast. For example, last year the Willow in Jock’s Lodge closed its doors. It was demolished just a few weeks ago to make room for student flats. Jock’s Lodge is a historical part of Edinburgh, but its character has been changing rapidly as our city grows. It has served the communities of Restalrig and Meadowbank since at least 1650, where it was the last stop on the London to Edinburgh stagecoach—those same people probably stopped at Stevenage on their way. With the Bill, the challenge is preserving the character and identity of a district as it changes. In Scotland, under SNP legislation, that is not happening. For Jock’s Lodge, Edinburgh council intervened and blocked the decision, but the Scottish Government—centralising, as always—called it in and vetoed the objections of 1,000 residents. That comes on top of 50% of pubs in Scotland closing—a faster rate than in England. Since 2021, 293 Scottish pubs have closed permanently, with 4.1% of pubs in England having closed compared with 6.4% of pubs in Scotland. That is due to Government decisions. I counsel hon. Members to look over the border to see the mistakes that the SNP is making.

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33. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Chris Murray

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. Scotland is the world capital of whisky. On the one hand, the spirits industry and the whisky industry are a crucial part of keeping pubs open. In my constituency, we often go into pubs and see people drinking a dram; it is not the beers and wines that keep pubs open in England. On the other hand, the challenges facing the whisky industry are the same as the ones that close pubs down south of the border. The big challenge is cost. It is much cheaper for someone to buy a bottle of whisky or gin and drink it at home, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Dr Prinsley) said in relation to beer. That is one of the big challenges we have. It is not just that; it is also challenges such as business rates and planning. Members have been discussing what they see as the flaws in the English planning system to protect pubs. I listened with envy, because the rules to protect pubs are much stronger here than they are in Scotland. Free-standing pubs can still, shamefully, be demolished without planning permission in Scotland, and CAMRA has long called for that loophole to be closed. In England, demolishing a pub or changing its use needs a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant development rights. That allows councils a chance to weigh up any impact. In Scotland, that is not the case. Pubs are better protected in England, and I would like us to follow suit in Scotland. The UK Labour Government have brought in business rates relief that will help pubs, but in Scotland those have not properly and fairly been passed to pubs in the community. As always in Scotland under the SNP, while the proposal from the Scottish Government may sound generous on paper, the reality is—and the pub industry argues—that the way they have structured the relief leaves many businesses worse off. On average, a pub in my constituency would have been paying £36,000 extra in rates had the SNP not been forced to backtrack. It is important to hear the cross-party and cross-country support in the Chamber for heritage pubs. I am happy to work with any Member from any party who wants to build them up. I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Community ownership, bringing people together and allowing our local economy to thrive are crucial roles that historic pubs have been playing in our constituencies for literally centuries. Long may they continue to do so.

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34. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    I thank the hon. Gentleman for introducing this interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic importance, and those can include heritage pubs. I am working to try to save the Old Glen House, one of our heritage pubs, and that has been suggested to me as an avenue for doing that. Does he agree that there is already provision under current rules?

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35. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    One of the pubs in my constituency, the Woolpack in Esholt, was the pub used for the filming of “Emmerdale”, if there are any fans of that show here. Although the building itself may not have huge heritage value, the pub has huge cultural heritage value, which ties in with what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) said. Does he agree that we need to capture that wider cultural heritage value, such as that which the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans?

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36. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden. That road closure, which lasted for an extended period of time, and those roadworks had a significant impact on people’s ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub in my constituency. These disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and I agree with my hon. Friend that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up roadworks and getting them completed on time, as well as making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs.

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37. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    In Shipley, we have an old tramshed, which was very successfully converted and is now the location for the SALT brewery, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. Again, it is not strictly within the definition of a heritage pub in the Bill, but the tramshed itself is a heritage space where SALT is now producing fantastic, excellent local beers, which I encourage all hon. Members to sample when they visit Shipley.

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38. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Drought Conditions: England

    As the Minister acknowledged, Yorkshire is now in drought, and at least part of the blame must be with the water companies such as Yorkshire Water who have failed to prioritise any long-term investment over short-term financial interests. Does the Minister agree that we need to use the upcoming water Bill to strengthen and change the way our water companies are run, so that they are run in the interests of citizens and consumers instead of profit-making companies?

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39. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I declare an interest with regard to the point I am about to make: I know the person who runs PatchWorks, which is an evaluation consultancy. PatchWorks did an evaluation report of a community-owned pub in Tollerton that was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. The report states that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it was a better place to live; 64% said it helped them to make and maintain local friendships; and in general, it created trade and brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. Does my hon. Friend agree with the findings of that evaluation, which show that there is a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, saving them from being closed and keeping them at the heart of our villages?

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40. 16 Oct 2026·Parliament·Labour·Anna Dixon

    Heritage Public Houses Bill

    On her many visits to her fantastic local pubs, has my hon. Friend enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire ale? The excellent Saltaire Blonde, brewed in my constituency and named after the fantastic world heritage site village of Saltaire, is distributed nationwide. Has it found its way into any of her local heritage pubs?

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