Conservative and Unionist Party: a sourced timeline of public activity, with filters by source type and a sidebar of tracked totals

Conservative and Unionist Party

Showing every spoken contribution, including 5,731 under 12 words. Hide short remarks

  1. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Thank you for giving evidence to us. I want your help to get my head around what could fall under the Bill’s discretionary power on the designation of critical supply chain entities. Synnovis is used as the exemplar of why such a power is needed. From your perspective in the NHS, what do you think would come into scope? For example, would patient transport or taxis come under scope as critical for the delivery of your services? Would a hospital cleaner come under the scope of a critical supplier if the service was outsourced to a private sector organisation? Would food provision in your hospital come under scope? Would the provision of materials, medicines or medical devices provided by private companies come under scope? Would the provision of IT services—physical computers, not cloud services—come under scope? Would locum agencies come under scope? In fact, would any private provider not come under the scope as critical for the provision of services linked to your organisation’s IT system? Brian Miller: That is a good question. Some of our colleagues mentioned the follow-up secondary legislation that will help us to identify those kinds of things. I suppose there is no difference from where we are at now. We would look at any provision of services from a risk management perspective and say what security controls apply. For example, would they be critical suppliers in terms of infrastructure and cyber-security? Does a cleaning service hold identifiable data? What are the links? Is it intrinsically linked from a technological perspective? I mentioned looking at this through a “defenders win” lens. Yes, some of these technologies are covered. I saw some of the conversations earlier about local authorities not being in scope, but services are so intrinsically linked that they can well come into scope. It might well be that some of the suppliers you mentioned fall under the category of critical suppliers, but that might be the case just now. There might be provision of a new service for medical devices, which are a good example because they are unique and different compliance standards apply to them. For anything like that, where we stand just now—outside the Bill—we risk assess it. There is such an intrinsic link. A colleague on another panel mentioned data across the services; that is why Stewart is here alongside me. I look after the IT security element and Stewart looks after the data protection element.

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  2. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Presumably, all suppliers are in some way linked to your IT systems to some degree. I know the NHS sometimes uses faxes still, but we do not live in a world where things are done by paper and pen—it is all integrated into IT systems. Brian Miller: Sometimes, but sometimes not. I do not think we had any physical links with Synnovis, but it did work on our behalf. Emails might have been going back and forward, so although there were no physical connections, it was still important in terms of business email compromise and stuff like that—there was a kind of ancillary risk. Again, when things like that come up, we would look at it: do we have connections with a third party, a trusted partner or a local authority? If we do, what information do we send them and what information do we receive?

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  3. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Your evidence is really helpful. To help with my understanding, if you look across all the suppliers in your service, are there any that you would not consider to be critical, such that if you clicked your fingers now and one of them disappeared, it would not have a material impact on your ability to maintain patient safety and deliver healthcare? Irrespective of the debate about size, what suppliers do you not determine to be critical? Stewart Whyte: For me, it would be a slightly different assessment from Brian’s. We would be looking at anything where there is no processing of personal data. For me, that would not be a critical supplier from a data protection perspective. But there might be some other integration with NHS board systems that Brian might have concerns about. There is a crossover in terms of what we do, but my role is to look at how we manage data within the NHS. If there are suppliers where there is no involvement with identifiable data of either staff or patients, I would not see them as a critical supplier under this piece of legislation.

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  4. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Do you have integration with your local primary care IT systems? For example, GPs have the old EMIS system and so on; is that integrated into your network? From your perspective, would that be a critical supplier that would need to be regulated? Stewart Whyte: Yes. There is a lot of information sharing between acute services and primary care via integrated systems. We send discharge letters and information directly to GP practices that then goes straight into the patient record with the GP. There is a lot of integration there, yes.

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  5. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Does that also exist for local government? Does adult social care and so on have that integration too? Stewart Whyte: Yes, there is integration between ourselves and the local authorities.

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  6. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Thanks for coming to give evidence this afternoon. I have two questions—one for each of you. Chris, from Fortinet’s perspective, what more do you think the Government can do to support SMEs to improve their cyber-resilience, while at the same time ensuring that the burden of regulation remains proportionate, particularly on smaller companies? Carla, from the Palo Alto Networks perspective, what are your views on the changes to the incident reporting regime under the Bill? Will the approach help or hinder regulators in identifying and responding to the most serious threats quickly? Chris Parker: I should point out that Carla is also co-chair of the cyber resilience committee, so you have both co-chairs here today. As large cyber companies, we are very proud of one thing that is pertinent to the sector that may not be clear to everybody outside. I have worked in many sectors, and this is the most collaborative—most of it unseen—and sharing sector in the world. It has to be, because cyber does not respect borders. When we go to the most vulnerable organisations, which one would expect cannot afford things and therefore there must be a function of price, such as SMEs—I was an SME owner in a previous life—that is very dear to us. With the technology that is available, what is really good news is that when people buy cyber-security for their small business—in the UK or anywhere in the world—they are actually buying the same technology; it is effectively just a different engine size in most cases. There are different phases of technology. There is the latest stuff that is coming in, which they may not be getting into yet. However, the first thing to say is that it is a very fair system, and pricing-wise, it is a very fair system indeed for SMEs. The second point is about making sure we are aware of the amount of free training going on across the world, and most of the vendors—the manufacturers—do that. Fortinet has a huge system of free training available for all people. What does that give? It is not just technical training for cyber-security staff; it is for ordinary people, including administrative workers and the people who are sometimes the ones who let the bad actor in. There are a lot of efforts. There is a human factor, as well as technological and commercial factors. The other thing I would like to mention is that the cyber resilience committee, which Carla and I are lucky to co-chair, is elected. We have elected quite a large proportion of SME members. There is also a separate committee run by techUK. You heard from Stuart McKean earlier today, and he is one of the co-chairs, or the vice chair, of that committee. Carla Baker: On incident reporting, as I am sure you are aware, the Bill states that organisations must report an incident if it is “likely to have an impact”. Our view, and I think that of techUK, is that the definition is far too broad. Anything that is likely to cause an impact could be a phishing email that an organisation has received. Organisations receive lots and lots of spoof emails. I will give an example. Palo Alto Networks is one of the largest pure-play cyber-security companies. Our security operations centre—the hub of our organisation—processes something like 90 billion alerts a day. That is just our organisation. Through analysis and automation, the number is whittled down to just over 20,000. Then, through technology and capabilities, it is further whittled down, so that we are analysing about 75 alerts. You can equate it to a car, for example. If you are driving and see a flashing yellow light, something is wrong. That is like 20,000 alerts. It is then whittled down to about 75, so we would potentially have to report up to 75 incidents per day, and that is just one organisation. There are a lot more. The burden on the regulator would be massive because there would be a lot of noise. It would struggle to ascertain what is the real problem—the high-risk incidents that impact the UK as a whole—and the noise would get in the way of that. We have come up with a suggestion, an amendment to the legislation, that would involve a more tiered approach. There would be a more measurable and proportionate reporting threshold, with three tiers. The first is an incident that causes material service disruption, affecting a core service, a critical customer or a significant portion of users. The second is unauthorised, persistent access to a system. The third is an incident that has compromised core security controls—that is, security systems. Having a threshold that is measurable and proportionate is easier for organisations to understand than referring to an incident that is “likely to have an impact”, because, as I said, a phishing email is likely to cause an impact if an organisation does not have the right security measures in place.

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  7. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q I would also like to ask some questions on this definition of critical supplier. I know you will have heard the questions I had for the other panel. Is there a danger, in the way this Bill is approaching definitions of critical suppliers, that a supplier may end up being deemed critical solely by virtue of supplying to a critical industry, rather than the criticality of that particular supplier in the ecosystem? Chris Parker: Yes, absolutely. Carla Baker: Yes, completely. That is similar to my point, which was probably not explained well enough: how you are deemed critical should be more about your criticality to the entire ecosystem, not just to one organisation.

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  8. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Notwithstanding other components to the criteria one may seek to use or will use, is there a danger that—although this is clearly not the intention in the drafting—through the back door, our entire economy ends up being in scope of this Bill? Carla Baker: I think that is part of the issue about not having clear criteria about how regulators will designate. That also means that different regulators will take different approaches, so we would welcome more clarity and early consultation around the criteria that will be used for the regulators to designate a critical dependency, which prevents having different regulatory approaches across the 12 different regulators, which we obviously do not want, and gives greater harmonisation and greater clarity for organisations to know, “Okay, I might be brought in, because those are the clear criteria the Government will be using.”

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  9. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Thank you, Minister, for giving evidence this afternoon. I have a couple of questions. The first is about the definitions in the Bill, whether of MSPs or otherwise. All day long we have heard from representatives of different sectors of the industry, and pretty much everyone has talked about the importance of consultation on the definitions and when they are applied in secondary legislation. A certain amount of that stuff will be in primary legislation, so what consultation have you had with industry in setting up the definitions in the Bill in the first place? Kanishka Narayan: Thank you for the question on definitions. I have two things to say on that. First, observing the evidence today, it is interesting that there are views in both directions on pretty much every definitional question. For example, on the definition of “incident thresholds”, I heard an expert witness at the outset of the day say that it is in exactly the right place, precisely because it adds incidents that have the capability to have an impact, even if not a directness of impact, to cover pre-positioning threats. A subsequent witness said that they felt that that precise definitional point made it not a fitting definition. The starting point is that there is a particular intent behind the definitions used in the Bill, and I am looking forward to going through it clause by clause, but I am glad that some of those tensions have been surfaced. Secondly, in answer to your question on consultation, a number of the particular priority measures in the Bill were also consulted on under the previous Government. We have been engaging with industry and, in the course of implementation, the team has started setting up engagement with regulators and a whole programme of engagement with industry as well.

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  10. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Thank you, Minister, but I am not sure that you answered my question. What engagement have you had in terms of consulting with industry in setting those definitions? Kanishka Narayan: I have met a number of companies, but the relevant Minister has also had extensive engagement with both companies and regulators, including on the question of definitions. I do not have a record of her meetings, but if that is of interest, I would be very happy to follow up on it.

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  11. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q I assume that you are referring to the previous Minister, who you took over from? Kanishka Narayan: I am referring to the Minister for Digital Economy, who is in the other place.

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  12. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Do you not think that, as the Minister taking this through the Commons, you should have also had some of those meetings and consultations? Kanishka Narayan: I have had some meetings but, as the Minister in charge of this Bill, she has been very engaged with businesses, so I think that is fitting. We have obviously worked very closely together, as we normally do, in the course of co-ordinating across the two Chambers.

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  13. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q What conversations have you had with the Secretary of State regarding guardrails on the extensive powers in this Bill that were referred to earlier? Kanishka Narayan: I have spoken to the Secretary of State about the Bill, including the reserve powers, and we have agreed that the policy objective is very clear. I do not think I am in a position to divulge particular details of policy discussions that we have had; I do not think that would be either appropriate or a fitting test of my memory.

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  14. ParliamentDr Ben Spencer

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Do you think there is a potential need for guardrails? Kanishka Narayan: I think the guardrails in the Bill are very important, absolutely. The Bill provides that, where there is an impact on organisations or regulators, there is an appropriate requirement for both deep consultation and an affirmative motion of the House. I think that is exactly where it ought to be, and I do not think anything short of that would be acceptable.

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  15. ParliamentDr Andrew Murrison

    Iran

    The IRGC navy is busy practising the rapid deployment of sea mines, presumably with a view to closing the strait of Hormuz, as it did between 1980 and 1988. What assessment have the Government made of the threat that that poses to our critical national interests? Has he considered the prepositioning of our autonomous mine-hunting capability, which entered service at the beginning of last year?

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  16. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Order. It is not me who is being referred to; it is the hon. Gentleman.

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  17. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Order. May I gently remind the hon. Lady that this is a very specific debate about the removal of the two-child limit and not a wider debate on tax policy?

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  18. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Order. For the assistance of Back Benchers who still wish to speak, I am about to remove the time limit. [Interruption.]

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  19. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Order. I respectfully remind the hon. Gentleman not to use the word “you”. He was suggesting that he might like to have a fight with me, and that would not end well.

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  20. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Order. Not “you”—I have not spoken in this debate!

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  21. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    I call the shadow Minister.

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  22. ParliamentCaroline Nokes

    Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill

    Will the Serjeant at Arms investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby?

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  23. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

    Q Picking up on what Jen mentioned about FTSE and publicly traded companies being within scope, is there a view on ensuring g that privately owned companies of a particular scale are within scope, and if so, how will you determine that? Might it be based on things such as turnover or number of employees, or would it be some other identifiable characteristic? Jen Ellis: For sure, it should not come down to whether you are public or private; it should be about impact. Figuring out how to measure that is challenging. I will leave that problem with policymakers—you’re welcome. I do not think it is about the number of employees. We have to think about impact in a much more pragmatic way. In the tech sector, relatively small companies can have a very profound impact because they happen to be the thing that is used by everybody. Part of the problem with security is that you have small teams running things that are used ubiquitously. We have to think a little differently about this. We have seen outages in recent years that are not necessarily maliciously driven, but have demonstrated to us how reliant we are on technology and how widespread the impact can be, even of something like a local managed service provider. One that happened to provide managed services for a whole region’s local government went down in Germany and it knocked out all local services for some time. You are absolutely right: we should be looking at privately held companies as well. We should be thinking about impact, but measuring impact and figuring out who is in scope and who is not will be really challenging. We will have to start looking down the supply chain, where it gets a lot more complex.

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  24. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

    Q Two questions: first, for a bit of context, could the witnesses give us an idea of the objectives of cyber-attacks? Are we seeing objectives based around disruption or around extortion, either monetary or for intellectual property? Perhaps we could have a perspective on whether that differs depending on the origin of the organisation conducting the cyber-attack. Secondly, around the reporting model, is there a view on whether the model proposed in the Bill is beneficial, and whether it risks a fragmented approach, particularly if companies operate in a sector that is regulated under the jurisdiction of two regulators? Do you think that a more universal, singular reporting model would be beneficial in ensuring as strong a response as possible? Dr Sanjana Mehta: May I weigh in on the second question first? It is good to note that the definition of reportable incident has expanded in the current legislation. One of the concerns that the post-implementation reviews had from the previous regulatory regime was that the regulated entities were under-reporting. We note that the Bill has now expanded the definition to include incidents that could have an adverse impact on the security and operations of network and information systems, in addition to those incidents that are having or have had a negative impact. While that is clear on the one hand—some factors have been provided, such as the number of customers affected, the geographical reach and the duration of the incident—what is not clear at the moment is the thresholds linked with those factors. In the absence of those thresholds, our concern is that regulated entities may be tempted to over-report rather than under-report, thereby creating more demand on the efforts of the regulators. We must think about regulatory capacity to deal with all the reports that come through to them, and to understand what might be the trade-offs on the regulated entities, particularly if an entity is regulated by more than one competent authority. For those entities, it would mean reporting to multiple authorities. For organisations that are small or medium-sized enterprises, there is a real concern that the trade-offs may result in procedural compliance over genuine cyber-security and resilience. We call on the Government for immediate clarification of the thresholds linked to those factors. Jill Broom: I would like to come in on that point. Our members would agree with it. Companies need to be clear about what needs to be reported, when it needs to be reported and where they need to report it. A bit of clarity is required on that, certainly around definitions. As Sanjana said, it is good to see that the definition is expanding, but definitions such as “capable of having” a significant impact remain unclear for industry. Therefore, we need a bit more clarity, because again, it means that we could risk capturing absolutely everything that is out there, and we really want to focus on: what is most important that we need to be aware of? Determining materiality is essential before making any report. In terms of the where and the how, we are also in favour of a single reporting platform, because that reduces friction around the process, and it allows businesses, ultimately, to know exactly where they are going. They do not need to report here for one regulator and there for another. It is a streamlined process, and it makes the regime as easy as possible to deal with, so it helps incentivise people to act upon it. I have another point to add about the sequencing of alignment with other potential regulation. We know that, for example, the Government’s ransomware proposals include incident-reporting requirements, and they are expected to come via a different legislative vehicle. We need to be careful not to add any additional layers of complexity or other user journeys into an already complex landscape.

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  25. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

    Q Do the witnesses have a view on the benchmarks that, at the moment, do not appear to sit behind the scale of incidents that must be reported? Do you have a view on the absence of any benchmarks and the impact that they may have on smaller firms, or on the risk of over-reporting? Stuart McKean: Under the designation of a critical supplier, the Bill says: “any such disruption is likely to have a significant impact on the economy or the day-to-day functioning of society in the whole or any part of the United Kingdom”. That is a pretty big statement. As a small business owner, how do I know whether what I do is going to have an economic effect on the UK? It will have an economic effect on my business, but whether it has a wider impact is a big statement. I am not sure that it is clear enough.

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  26. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

    Q How might we glean some clarity on that? Stuart McKean: It needs more detail, even if that is about providing some boundaries so that we have something to say, “If it is going to do the following, what is a ‘significant economic impact’?”. I would like to think that none of our services would have a significant economic impact, but they may well affect a person, so I would bring it more on to the citizen and the impact on people. We heard this a number of times in relation to the JLR incident: the impact on the supply chain was huge, it was economically very costly and directly impacted people’s lives. Anything that can provide more clarity in the definition of an impact at that level can only help. Jill Broom: I agree. More clarity is needed. The Bill should be tighter in terms of defining that sort of systemic risk. Dr Sanjana Mehta: The Bill as it stands requires competent authorities and regulators to designate an organisation as a critical supplier rather than the regulated entity. Organisations work with complex multi-tier supply chains, and the concern is that competent authorities that are one step further removed from those complex supply chains, and have even less visibility, transparency and control over those supply chains, might find it difficult to determine true criticality and risk within the supply chains. We ask for greater collaboration and co-ordination between the regulated entities and the competent authorities in designating an organisation as a critical supplier.

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  27. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

    Q I have two questions. First, on the topic of cross-border control, how do you think we can get definition around the resilience obligations and how they apply to foreign-hosted systems, particularly given that your networks will be quite widespread? My second question is more broad. Given that you are all responsible for operating networks that are strategically important, and that you are also commercial companies, how do you think we strike the right balance between growth in AI, proportionate regulation and not stifling commercial innovation? Dr Ian Levy: I will start with that one.

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  28. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q What additional resources will you need in order to implement and enforce the requirements of the Bill? Ian Hulme: Again, to contrast the ICO’s position with that of other colleagues, we have a much larger sector, as it currently exists, and we will have a massively larger sector again in the future. We are also funded slightly differently. The ICO is grant in aid funded from Government, so we are dependent on Government support. To move from a reactive footing, which is our position at the moment—that is the Government’s guidance to competent authorities and to the ICO specifically—to a proactive footing with a much expanded sector, will need significant uplift in our skills and capability, as well as system development in order to register and ingest intelligence from MSPs and relevant digital service providers in the future. From our perspective at the ICO, we need significant support from DSIT so that we can transition into the new regulatory regime. It will ultimately be self-funding—it is a sustainable model—but we need continued support during the transition period.

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  29. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Are you able to quantify that in any way? Ian Hulme: At the moment, to give you a few broad numbers our teams are around 15 people, and we anticipate doubling that. In the future, with self-funding, we will be a bit more in control of our own destiny. It is a significant uplift from our perspective. Natalie Black: The challenge is that the devil is in the detail. Until that detail has worked through secondary legislation, we will have to reserve our position, so that we give you accurate numbers in due course. From Ofcom’s point of view, it is about adding 10s rather than significant numbers. I do not think we are that far off the ICO. But I want to emphasise that this is about quality, not necessarily quantity. Companies want to work with expert regulators who really know what they are doing. Ofcom is building on the work we are already doing under the Telecommunications (Security) Act 2021. It will be a question of reinforcing that team, rather than setting up a separate one. We want to get the best, high-quality individuals who know how to talk to industry and really know cyber-security, to make sure people have a good experience when engaging with us. Ian Hulme: To add to that, the one challenge we will face as a group is that we are all fishing in the same pond for skills. MSPs and others will also be fishing in that pond from the sector side. There needs to be recognition that there is going to be a skills challenge in this implementation. Stuart Okin: To specifically pick up on the numbers, we have a headcount of 43 who are dedicated within cyber regulation. That also includes the investment side. We also have access to the engineering team—the engineering directorate—which is a separate team. There is also our enforcement directorate, as well as the legal side of things. The scope changes proposed in the Bill are just the large load controllers and supply chain, so we are not expecting a major uplift. These will be small numbers in comparison. Unlike my colleagues, we are not expecting a big uplift in resourcing.

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  30. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q For the avoidance of doubt, I will put on the record that I am a member of the IPAC caucus in this Parliament. Thank you for coming in to see us. You have spoken about the threats from hostile and adversarial states. Given the scope of what we are talking about, can you give us any insight on what comparable western nations are doing to protect themselves? Chung Ching Kwong: The US is probably a good example. It passed Executive order 14028 in May 2021, which requires any software vendor selling to the US federal Government to provide something called a software bill of materials—SBOM. That is technically a table of ingredients, but for software, so you can see exactly what components the software is made of. A lot of the time people who code are quite lazy; they will pull in different components that are available on databases online to form a piece of software that we use. By having vendors provide an SBOM, when anything happens, or whenever any kind of vulnerability is detected, you can very easily find out what happened. That is due to a hack in 2021, in which a tiny, free piece of code called Log4j was found to have a critical vulnerability. It was buried inside thousands of commercial software products. Without that list of ingredients, it would be very difficult for people who had been using the software to find out, because, first, they may not have the technological capabilities and, secondly, they would not even know if their software had that component. This is one of the things the US is doing to mitigate the risks when it comes to software. Something that is not entirely in the scope of the Bill but is also worth considering is the US’s Uyghur Forced Labour Prevention Act. That is designed to prevent goods made with forced labour from entering the supply chain. The logic of preventing forced labour is probably something that the UK can consider. Because the US realised that it could not inspect every factory in Xinjiang to prove forced labour, it flipped the script: the law creates a rebuttable presumption that all goods from that region are tainted, so the burden of proof is now on the importer to prove, with clear and convincing evidence, that their supply chain is clean. A similar logic could be considered when it comes to this Bill to protect cyber-security. Any entities that are co-operating with the PLA—the People’s Liberation Army—for example, should be considered as compromised or non-trustworthy until proven otherwise. That way, you are not waiting until problems happen, when you realise, “Oh, this is actually tainted,” but you prevent it before it happens. That is the comparison that I would make.

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  31. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q With regard to ransom payments and extortion attempts, what do you typically see? Is it for monetary gain or intellectual property data—what is the split? DCS Andrew Gould: That is another really good question. Generally, it is financial, but you will often get what is called the double dip, so there is the extraction of data as well as the encryption of it, so that you no longer have access to it. They might take that data as well, primarily personal data, because of the regulatory pressures and challenges that that brings. There is a sense among a lot of criminal groups that, if they have personal data, you are more likely to pay, because you do not want that reputation, embarrassment and all the rest of it, as opposed to if they take intellectual property, for example. But it is not that that does not happen as well. Primarily, it is financial gain.

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  32. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Would the cyber-attacks on JLR and M&S that took place last year be in the scope of this Bill? Kanishka Narayan: I am shy of making comments on specific incidents, but as a broad brush, clearly the food supply or automotive manufacturing sectors are not directly in scope of the Bill, for reasons I am very much happy to discuss.

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  33. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q Do you think they should be within scope? Kanishka Narayan: Let me place the focus of this Bill in the global context. As we have heard, there is a range of legislative as well as non-legislative measures on cyber-security. It is deeply important that every organisation, whether in scope of the Bill or not, acts robustly, and we will look at that, not least through the cyber action plan, which I know industry welcomed earlier today and which we are looking forward to publishing very soon. The particular focus of this Bill is on essential services, the disruption of which would pose an imminent threat—for example, to life and to our economy—in the immediate context. For reasons that we can dive into, if you look at a market such as food supply, the diversity, competitive nature and alternative provision in that market are so obvious that to designate it as fitting the definitional scope I have just highlighted would not be an evidence-led way of engaging.

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  34. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q But would you like to see a Bill that goes further and has broader scope? Kanishka Narayan: As I have said, this legislative vehicle is focused on really high standards of rigour for essential services. I am very keen to ensure that, in the first instance, we are engaging with those companies through the cyber action plan and the National Cyber Security Centre’s framework and to ensure that, as a consequence of those, they are in a robust place.

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  35. ParliamentBradley Thomas

    Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

    Q With regard to skills, given the acute shortage and the growth of this industry, what do you propose to ensure that the public sector is adequately resourced, given what will undoubtedly be a very lucrative private sector appeal for that talent? Kanishka Narayan: This is a great question. There are two things on my mind. One is that the Government have published a cyber action plan, the crux of which is to make sure that, from the point of view of understanding, principles, accountability and, ultimately, skills, there is significant capability in the public sector. The second thing to say is that we have a very broad-based plan on skills more generally across the cyber sector, public and private. For example, I am really proud of the fact that, through the CyberFirst programme, some—I think—415,000 students right across the country have been upskilled in cyber-security. It is deeply important that the public sector ensures that we are standing up to the test of hiring them and making the attraction of the sector clear to them as well. There is a broad-based plan and a specific one for the public sector in the Government context.

    Hansard source
  36. ParliamentBob Blackman

    Court Backlog

    One of the areas causing the delays is the lack of defence barristers. It will clearly take time to train new barristers, but what incentives can the Minister offer to those qualifying in law to become defence barristers, rather than seeking other avenues in the law?

    Hansard source
  37. ParliamentBob Blackman

    Topical Questions

    T5. To discourage ex-offenders from reoffending, it is crucial that on leaving prison they have a stable home, the opportunity of a job, and a stable network around them to stop them reoffending. However, with the advent of early release, there is a risk that those leaving prison are not given that support before they leave the prison gates. What action will the Minister take to ensure that those leaving prison after completing their sentences actually do not reoffend?

    Hansard source
  38. ParliamentBob Blackman

    Iran

    The IRGC and the so-called morality police have murdered 30,000 people on the streets of Iran. They pursued the wounded to their home, or to hospital, and murdered them. Given the length of time we have had to consider the proscription of the IRGC in its entirety, and given that we now have clear evidence of our own allies proscribing the IRGC in its entirety, why are the Government are not bringing forward such a proscription? Just before the weekend, I contributed to a cross-party letter to the Prime Minister, in which Members offered to support the fast-tracking of legislation through both Houses. The will is there on both sides of the House. Obviously the Minister cannot answer this at the Dispatch Box now, but will he go back to the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary, and ensure that this gets done?

    Hansard source
  39. ParliamentBen Obese-Jecty

    Prison Estate: Safety

    The use of drones to bring contraband into prisons has become a significant issue. Last year there was an intra-year increase of 43% in the use of drones for illegal activity on the prison estate, and, as an MP with a prison in my constituency, HMP Littlehey, I find this surge in their use alarming. Last month the Justice Secretary announced that he had “tasked British prisons with learning from Ukraine’s drone expertise” with a £6.5 million funding stream, but no tenders are currently out to develop that capability. The only specific competition from the Ministry of Justice has been November’s £60,000 counter-drone challenge. Can the Justice Secretary tell us what is the current counter-drone strategy for HM Prison and Probation Service, given the current delays in the installation of physical unmanned aircraft systems countermeasures, what specific projects are actually in flight to develop the counter-UAS capability across our prison estate, and by when that capability will be available?

    Hansard source
  40. ParliamentBen Obese-Jecty

    Separation Centres Review

    I wholeheartedly agree that our most dangerous prisoners should be dealt with appropriately, but I will touch on an adjacent point around prison capacity. We are aware that the Government are in the process of rolling out more prison places—around 14,000—but we are also aware that none of those prison places are currently designated as category A. Looking at the most recent statistics for the beginning of the year, we see that of the available capacity in the prison system, only 12% is category A. Is the Justice Secretary confident that there is enough remaining capacity in the prison system at category A level, given that the remaining prison places planned are categories B to D? What is the number of available prison places remaining that will trigger a need for us to build out that capacity?

    Hansard source